Its the Orbea Rise that achieves the most discreet integration however, with a frame that was purpose-built around the smaller EP8 motor, rather than having been retrofitted from a previous E8000 drive unit. Its clear why this motor is becoming popular with so many bike brands, given the flexibility it offers frame designers, particularly with the variety of battery options on offer. You can't call an e-bike rider lazy when they try to overtake you making this sound. However, when coasting on rough terrain the unloaded system can exhibit a normal clicking sound that may be detectable to the rider. If thats the case for you, start at Level 5 and work your way down a notch at a time. 2c - If preload cap has no threadlock patch pre applied: Can never hear it over the sound of the wind rushing by or the trail / wheels noises. Limiting the maximum torque is something youll notice more at low cadences in high-load applications rather than general trail riding. Annoying rattle, did anyone say that to Shimano when they first introduced the freewheel? However, all are fitted with Shimano cranks. I chose this bike because it has the EP8 and from research, seems to be the most reliable platform out there, assuming it's as reliable as the E8000. There is zero stickiness at the pedals that we could detect. Most brains will be capable of doing this, as the noise in question isnt actually signalling a fault with the motor. If possible, repeat this ride on the Eco and Boost modes too. Im the worlds biggest ebike fan & I quite agree. - Range estimation is not reliable. My take away besides the obviously pro/con talking points was the weight of the bike. The existing Shimano E8000 motor is arguably the most popular motor in mountain e-bikes. It doesn't feel good. In the higher settings, the motor will deliver maximum power without you having to pedal very hard at all. I think the only way it can get even close (And still doesn't) to that statement, is riding 25km on an analogue, or 50km on an ebike. It isnt a huge difference, but sometimes its just enough for your rear wheel to make it up and over a stubborn tree root or rock ledge. These motors have Cadence sensors as well as torque sensors. Furthermore, the range estimation is more accurate in our experience too. A dinamo or recharging when braking or something That's what I'm still waiting for! Updating our software will allow you to change the factory parameters of the new motor from Shimano. As they say, power is nothing without control. - Can we have remaining battery displayed as a percentage please? The EM800 display features built-in Bluetooth and ANT+ wireless connectivity for pairing both your phone and a compatible GPS head unit, allowing you to display information such as battery life and remaining range. We like to setup Profile 1 with softer settings for maximum range when riding solo, and Profile 2 with the punchier factory settings for faster e-MTB group rides. You can't imagine what kind of thought must have gone behind that response? Unfortunately frenchies and Germans are not masters of marketing. Thanks! After downloading the free E-Tube Project app, youll need to turn the bike on and pair it with your smartphone. [The] topic has been closed from Shimano[s] side but e*thirteen is still investigating with independent labs.. That's worse to, because 20kg dead weight doesn't contribute like 20kg of normal, muscle-laden body mass. But would the noise stop us from recommending an EP8-equipped bike? That is, spme pretension or a clutch like system. From what I get from the article, what would actually bother me more is how it kicks in from a standstill or trackstand. And in terms of backup service and support, the fact that there are far more Shimano dealers than there are Specialized dealers may also be preferable for some riders. The downside for Bosch is that its display options leave a lot to be desired. We haven't really got an opinion about durability. These findings are the result of an independently commissioned investigation by e*thirteen, after the brand became aware of reports that EP8 spindles were failing on bikes fitted with its ebike cranks. this dude knows how to write a review, well done. The sound is the same, the motor works but you just hear it spinning. Some say it's unreliable with a high risk of getting bricked. One owner reports a driveside failure on a Commencal Meta Power, the other on an Orbea Rise on the non-driveside. Make it 100 mile range, and I'm in. One of the more intriguing aspects of EP8 is the ability to fine-tune the motors performance via Shimanos E-Tube Project app. The complaints of charge bars on the display and the bike starting without any assistance are non issues for me. This data covers comprehensive third party metallurgical analysis in addition to results from a rigorous test battery of corrosion testing combined with ISO Fatigue. Stay tuned, as well have an Orbea Rise test bike arriving very soon. I'm 56 with a long term knee injury. What is rattling? Hes one of BikeRadars lead testers and knows how to push bikes and products to the limit, searching out the equipment that represents the best value for money. Basically any minor impact that causes the chain to bounce and tug at the chainring will result in noise. Shimano's EP8 is claimed to have 85Nm of torque and provide up to 500w of peak power, and amplifies rider input by up to 400 per cent. Ebikes are cool but not quite refined enough to jump in yet. The brand suggests EP8 owners should inspect their motors spindles for damage or cracks originating from the drilled hole used for the pedal crank retainer hook, located on the splined portion of the axle. Meanwhile, e*thirteens response places the ball firmly in Shimanos court. Mine gets very hot. Wait until you see how much work it takes to replace rear derailleur housing! The Shimano EP8 user interface is similarly elegant in its design. The EP8s smooth power delivery is mirrored by its exceptionally low drag something that is totally noticeable (or rathernot noticeable) around the 25km/h cutoff point. The DIODE has the Shimano E8000 motor and both bikes regardless of motor specs and differences do one thing really, really wellthey make riding FUN! What settings you end up will depend on your personal riding style, and your expectations of range and power output. I want to use the Shimano EP8 motor for a small production of solar bikes. I'm sure a dynamo can be integrated somehow with the hub rotations without causing a lot of drag. Wed much rather see battery life displayed as a percentage, and the option to customise the screen. Along with a new larger 630Wh battery option, plus updated hardware and software, Shimano certainly hasnt held back with its much-anticipated return fire on the highly competitive and fast-moving electric mountain bike market. I found this beauty as an example: The reviewer weighs 55kgs. But please don't anyone kid themselves that it's as much of a work out as an analogue bike, if there was no mechanical advantage over analogue what would be the benefit. Ive only charged 2x. Why so delicate, bro? Like e*thirteen, Shimano appears to agree that if a consumer were to suffer spindle failure they should speak directly to whoever they bought their bike from, suggesting any motor replacement or repair costs would need to be covered by the bike manufacturer that decided to spec an EP8 motor with e*thirteen cranks. Not a big Chan e but worth a look. Side-by-side, the EP8 motor is slimmer around the belly and so offers a skerrick more ground clearance. I have the EP8 on a Commencal Meta Power. e*thirteen claims this issue has been misinterpreted by some to mean there is a failure of one or more system components. According to the TSB, only Shimanos EP8 motor is affected. Our drive units are not tested for use with third party crank arms.. While the EP8s performance on the climbs is generally excellent, we have occasionally wished for a little more overrun for clearing technical features. That makes it tricky to work out how much assistance youll be finishing your ride with. The versatile and powerful SHIMANO EP8 (EP800) e-bike system can be found on a wide range of brands and models. If you are disabled and need a motor on your bike in order to ride, I understand. I read a similar story around christmas on an other forum. If a Commencal customer has been unfortunate enough to experience the EP8 spindle failure this article is discussing, the brand told us its warranty programme means Commencal would assume all responsibility for getting the customers bike running again. Not the first time Shimano has screwed the pooch with recent launches. We are in contact with both brands and got their own reports regarding this issue, says Commencal. - Available on a wide-range of different e-MTBs, - Clacking noise can be annoying A bit like chain slap when you don't apply force on the pedals. The svelte motor casing provides more clearance for the rear wheel and suspension components, allowing brands to build their bikes with shorter chainstays. A dynamo and regenerative braking is the ONLY thing stopping from buying an e-bike? This gives a very wide and flexible power band that does well to match what your legs are doing, making this the go-to, set-and-forget mode for proper off-roading. Where the EP8 motorisnt quieter than its predecessor however, is when youre not pedalling. The issue, we've been told, is that the motor body is subject to cracking when the drive is employed as a stressed part of the bike's frame. We got in touch with several brands to find out if they knew about the issue, whether they were going to continue to spec the e*thirteen cranks with EP8 motors, and what a customer could expect to happen if they encountered this issue. Are we ignoring the fact that motor has been recalled/reworked by Shimano, and pushing all new bike deliveries by two months (at least)? Alex is also a dedicated eMTB rider, and still dabbles in racing of a sort, doing his best to top the Strava leaderboard on the steepest, gnarliest and twistiest trails the Tweed Valley has to offer just for fun, of course. As mentioned earlier, the Bosch motor does feel punchier than Shimano EP8, with noticeably stronger support at lower cadences. SpecializEd # levo SL is a great benchmark Have had a Specialized Levo & sold it due to making weird noises, so yes other manufacturers have problems too, not saying that is easy to get good reliability with new technology, but my Shimano e-8000 motor has been more reliable even is very wet weather! However, when coasting on rough terrain the unloaded system can exhibit a 'NORMAL' clicking sound that may be detectable to the rider. Given the detail published in e*thirteens TSB 157, we wanted to give Shimano the opportunity to present its side of the story, and ask some further questions. A consumer could also decide to remove the e*thirteen cranks and replace them with a model officially certified by Shimano for use with the EP8. Subscribe to Cycling Plus from just 13.50 and get a Lezyne Pocket Drive Pump, worth 29! The cause is due to the difference in design from Shimanos crank, which causes increased stress around the spindle hole.. Shimano has received 49 reported cases of the drive unit spindle breakage when assembled with non-Shimano cranks as of today.. Thanks to lightweight magnesium components, Shimano has shaved off a cool 200g of weight making it one of the lightest electric bike motors on the market today. Chuckle. Couldn't agree more. Yeah but who needs all that power? As well as being smaller, lighter and more efficient, the new EP8 drive unit also packs more punch with up to 85Nm of torque, bringing it up to speed with the latest power plants from Bosch, Yamaha and Brose/Specialized. Still, the performance in the adaptive E-MTB mode is excellent, with smooth and flexible power delivery, and riders wanting plenty of grunt will certainly dig the Bosch motor. Once again still want to know; is the BB replaceable on these units yet, or are they still landfill waiting to happen? While some frames will resonate more than others, the noise is otherwise normal, and it doesnt take long before your brain subconsciously ignores it. Quick everyone, it's another article about e-bikes grab the pitchforks! This is a real review with details and pros and cons. Why don't they buy dirtbikes instead ? You can hear it in the workshop just by lifting the rear wheel and dropping it on the ground, where it sounds a bit like a loose pebble bouncing around inside a wooden box. Thus, I could ride a few feet with power then the motor would cut off. Its almost as if the battery drains faster in that final 20%. Shimano advises that only approved crank arms should be used with its DU-EP8 drive units, reads Shimanos statement. Indeed Shimano EP8 is starting to become available across quite a wide range of bikes at various price points. The YT Decoy also utilises its own 520Wh battery and the the Orbea Rise is built around a smaller 360Wh battery. In comparison, the MasterMind TCU display on the new Specialized Levo offers a significantly more customisable and overall user-friendly experience. So that would include rocks, hops, trackstands but also sudden boosts from a standstill. Rattling noise, you've seen (or heard) any of the Semenuk RAW100 videos? Its easy to modulate via how much pressure youre putting through the cranks and the power delivery is progressive, giving it a very natural feel as a result. You miss that obscure offering from Specialized? But overall EP8 offers more of a quieter and gentler hum than the whine of the E8000 motor, and its also quieter than the Bosch motor too. The compact size and a magnesium casing helped cut 300 grams. Just remember to manually unpair your phone from the bike before you start riding again, as the motor wont engage while the system is paired to the app. I own the Levo SL, and it is the most refined ebike I have ridden so far. The reported cases of drive unit spindle breakages on our DU-EP800 drive units were combined with non-Shimano cranks. It even surpasses them in terms of noise (very quiet under load) and weight. Recalled but still was delivered with the rattle. @tomdesoals: Ah, thanks I get it. Commencal which has sold a number of its Meta Power electric bikeswith an EP8 motor and e*thirteen crank combination replied to our inquiries. In the lower settings, youll have to pedal really hard to get maximum support the motor. Specializeds Mission Control app continues to be the market leader in terms of connectivity, tuning options and user-friendliness. Still, that clutch design means it is impressively drag-free beyond the cutoff point. I wish real bike reviews were this detailed. It's kinda frustrating. What would happen if a consumer noticed their axle was cracked in the way described on e*thirteens TSB? In a closed Facebook group called Shimano EP8 Owners, there are also reports of EP8 spindle failures. If you don't like e-bikes for whatever reason, you really have no business even commenting on this review. Can't see the equivalent of a ribbed chainstay protector happening. The newly shaped buttons on the EM800-L switch unit provide a nice tactile perch for your thumb to quickly flick between those settings. 214 Over the past six months of riding, the Shimano EP8 motor has really impressed us with just how much punch it delivers from such a lightweight and compact package. Specialized is close to this. People know you're not running some old E8000 or E7000 motor. But it is not anywhere near the same engine in everything else. 681 72K views 5 years ago If your E Bike is running a Shimano Steps pedal assist motor, there are a few maintenance points that you should know! Seeing if anyone else out there has had problems with their EP8. I'm not an ebike hater - but (you knew it was coming) - I can't ever see myself being able to justify the expense of one and I wouldn't like to risk a second hand one. Ebikes are great as a self shuttle, especially for time limited people. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Maximum power output sits at 500W, although the. Plus the prices will drop as the tech becomes cheaper and can be offered at lower prices. Don't worry: "Every time you start your pitchfork, it resets into 'no stab' mode. Unfortunately this clutch also produces a metallic clack whenever it rotates back and fourth. I also have a YT Decoy with Shimano E8000 motor. By their own standards of non-assist components, this motor is not worthy of the shimano name. Bosch's Performance Line CX equals Shimano's torque,. By Ralf Hauser I had the same issue with my Yamaha but it was last winter. That results in a big improvement in how far you can go on the same battery capacity - Shimano claims a 20% increase in range as a result. One note on range Shimanos range estimation is not reliable. All I could find is that bike manufacturers are to hold off selling the EP8 until Oct/Nov while they addresses some final issues. e*thirteen recommends inspecting Shimano EP8 motor spindles to ensure no cracks are present before riding any EP8 equipped bike again and in doing so have provided a step by step process for doing this with images and instructions below. Sources at numerous ebike suppliers have told Cycle Volta this week that releases of new EP8-equipped electric mountain bikes are being held up, on Shimano's direction. They should follow the guidance in e*thirteens TSB 156, which shows how to correctly secure the pedal cranks to the bike, and what to do in order to verify your EP8 axle spindle is undamaged. Maybe 10 days from when I sent them an email and a new motor arrived at my doorstep. Nothing like on an ebike. We asked Shimano and e*thirteen for comment on the spindle cracking issue. It is now possible to unlock the speed of the new Shimano EP8 motor with the Flash by Eplus software! There are 5 levels of adjustment from Mild to Quick, with the highest setting requiring only a small rotation with light pedal force to engage the motor. The low profile EM800 display takes up minimal space next to the stem, featuring a crystal-clear screen with colour-coded graphics to easily identify which assist setting youre in. Shimano's EP8, short for DU-EP800, features a higher maximum torque of 85Nm compared to the older E8000's 70Nm, topping it by an extra 21%. Improving performance on undulating terrain, Shimano has also increased the EP8s available torque at lower cadences. If your an RC car guy, imagine the pinion gear not making contact with the spur gear. 1. I've never heard the rattling noise that has been posted in the early reviews - the motor is super quiet, so it looks to me like much ado about nothing. So, when the sensor senses a negative elevation gain, the dynamo kicks in to recharge the battery. It also depends on the bike too. e-bikes remove the only non-financial barrier for entry into a sport that historically required at least some small amount of fitness. Others will tell us the EP8 is a weaker motor. Funny that Shimano now budget e-bike motor builds? Their new ride algorithms make the EP8 one of the most natural feeling motors out there, with plenty of power to propel the bike over obstacles, even if Bosch and Brose are still a bit punchier and deliver slightly more power. As mentioned above, the Assistance Character bears the biggest influence on the motors on-trail feel, and dialling this down can make quite a big difference to the amount of range you can get from the battery. Purchased an SC Bullit in march and I now have 520 miles on it. Going the right direction in weight reduction. I was sure it was a motor issue till I realized I needed to put the speed sensor on the new wheel. While I am at the age/account to have one, I couldn't imagine riding longer than my 630W battery lasted, i don't think i would be able to walk for a week. Take note of how much elevation you achieve during those rides (elevation is more important than distance when determining range), and keep that number in mind when youre planning future all-day epics. I tried to find out the cause of this. What can consumers expect to happen if their EP8s spindle fails? I think Shimano is taking these issues very seriously. Anyone having problems with the charger? And you're clearly not pedaling, just pure flow. According to Shimano, design differences between Shimano and non-Shimano cranks cause the axle to crack and eventually fail. Simply named by Specialized as the 2.2, the motor continues to offer 90Nm of peak torque, and externally it has the same mounting points and overall shape. Aim for a cadence between 70-90 RPM for maximum efficiency and response from the motor. Both bikes were fitted with e*thirteen cranks. Hopefully we will have a system with little weight penalty in a few years. - A little more overrun on technical climbs would be swell Also did some trail work. Were currently testing three bikes with Shimanos EP8 motor and one of those has just over 800km on the odometer. The brand was made aware of failures occurring when the EP8 motor is used with pedal cranks made by brands other than Shimano, including e*thirteens e*spec ebike-specific cranks. Total power isnt quite as brutish as Bosch and Brose, but the real beauty about EP8 is that it retains the smooth and intuitive performance that we loved about the old motor. Easy fix. What this article says to me is that ebikes are no where never the level of refinement that I would require to give up a normal bike. Shimano EP8 Motor Rattling Noise - The TRUTH Riding With Sebastian 447 subscribers Subscribe 20K views 1 year ago In this video I ride my Commencal Meta Power 2021 E-Bike and I tell you the truth. Now, would we like to see Shimano eliminate the noise altogether? While the motor is both more sensitive and more powerful though, Shimano has done brilliantly to offer usable control of that power. Approved crank arms are listed at si.shimano.com and are communicated towards bicycle manufacturers. Any rider who owns an ebike with an EP8 motor fitted with e*thirteen cranks currently has two options. What a misstep by Shimano to join Bosch in its failure. In comparison, you can get a Polygon Mt Bromo N8 with a Shimano EP8 motor for $7,899 AUD. Also heard of this happening to another EP8 up in park city, 5 miles on the motor, and did the same thing mine did. I suppose pedal assist allows you to tackle the more fun/steep/tech climbs but to be effective it needs to be subtle too. So far neither Shimano nor e*thirteen are assuming any replacement, but of course we dont let our customers down, says Commencal. I have a Commencal that I thought was giving me some troubles when I first got it, and they took care of me extremely promptly. Its mostly apparent when freewheeling down really rough trails, but weve been able to detect it when the motor is engaging and disengaging around the 25km/h cutoff on the road, and while cruising over washboard bumps on mundane fireroads. 2a - Using a 5mm hex key, loosen counterclockwise and remove the preload cap. So despite being an engineer the non-linear noisy nature of the reporting makes it very difficult to plan rides and I almost always finish the last few km without assistance for bigger rides. Alex Evans is BikeRadars senior mountain bike technical editor. Bikers Edge in Kaysville Utah hooked it up and took a motor off their demo heckler mx and put it on mine. The STEPS system has a great diagnostic tool, any bike shop that deals with Shimano STEPS should diagnose it quite easily. He started racing downhill at the tender age of 11 before going on to compete across Europe. This allows bike companies to engineer a single frame, while offering cheaper models with a 504Wh battery, and high-end models with a 630Wh battery. For riders scoping out bigger rides than that, youll want to consider dialling down the Assistance Character to improve efficiency. So then it gets really confusing as it seems like the first bar lasts 30% and the last one 10%. Its also a very quiet motor when pedalling. The freewheel is still in the (regular) rear hub so when you're not pedaling, nothing in the motor-bottombracket assembly should be moving, isn't it? That just isn't real world riding though, you just don't spend all your time in boost mode. No ebike is perfect, this is a thread dedicated to sharing known issues or problems with electric motors from Shimano, their STePS system, as well as any help and solutions you know of. - Lightweight and small form factor This occurs if the cap is not correctly tightened or the factory-fitted threadlock hasnt been adequately applied, and if the crank arms pinch bolts arent tightened to their correct torque. Sometimes that means a DIY fix and other times it can mean a recall, software update or part replacement by a dealer. - High quality display & controller Though the new EP8 motor is claimed to be more efficient than its predecessor, there is of course more power too. Currently, I own two e-bikes with a new 2022 Moustache Samedi 26 Fat 4 with the Bosch Motor on its way. The metallurgic analysis was conducted to discover root cause. Posted Oct 21, 2020. To replicate field failures, we had to look outside of the required ISO and EN testing requirements as those tests were passed successfully. So why has no one made a motorized gearbox yet? Would you like to receive offers, updates and events from BikeRadar and its publisher Our Media Ltd (an Immediate Group Company)? Overall very pleased with the bike and the motor. You can hear the motor spinning and attempting to assist, but no power is delivered. Maximum power output sits at 500W, although the continuous power output is set at 250W like most motors. Wait, 23-27kms? I despise young people buying ebikeswhat a bunch of lazy. What is Shimanos take on e*thirteens metallurgic analysis findings? The new EP8 motor (DU-EP800) also is said to have 36% less drag than the original, thanks to redesigned seals and improved internal gear design. "- Only five power bars for charge level.". Quote Start New Topic Post a reply to: SHIMANO EP8 - won't turn on (new bike) And Im no anti-ebike merchant, been quietly awaiting the age/account balance when I can justify one actually. Again, shift it down one notch at a time to get a feel for the change. The new motor, called EP8, is 10 percent smaller and is a lot lighter. The belt-driven design is also a touch quieter when pedalling, and theres no clacking noise either. Alex moved to Morzine in the French Alps at 19 to pursue a career as a bike bum and clocked up an enormous amount of riding. Now I have $10k garage ornament that I can't ride for 3 months. Too hot to handle even. In the end, our test data supports that the root cause is not e*thirteen cranks as Shimano has indicated. Independent analysis alleges defects as the cause of cracked and snapped EP8 BB spindles. For a lighter pedal feel than the E8000, the one-way bearing has reduced its rotational resistance, creating a free play. While the increased power certainly grabs most of the headlines, we reckon its the compact form of the Shimano EP8 drive unit that offers the greatest advantage over its competitors. Additionally, Shimano produces a smaller and lighter 504Wh option, which is also cheaper and helps to bring the complete bike price down see the sub-$8K Polygon Mt Bromo N8 for example. My Bullit died after 80 miles - same symptoms you describe. Same with brose 2.1 & their motor failures. However, you do pay for all that refinement and integration. Please, It appears you're using an old version of Internet Explorer which is, the 471.5mm rear centre on the Giant Trance X E+, that achieves the most discreet integration, the MasterMind TCU display on the new Specialized Levo. I have ridden ebikes great fun,addictive, you gain some things , but lose some things as well, like all bikes a compromise. All you guys "waiting" to get a ebike are blowing it..the bikes are refined trek rail no problems..going around the country slaying every trail I see chugging beer and laughing at all u haters.. believe me I guys will all be on one sooner than later. This means that if you ride in the default Trail and Boost settings, youll actually end up with a similar total range as the old E8000 motor, albeit with the benefit of more power and assistance throughout the ride. Its a little different though, with Orbea detuning the motors power and assistance to improve efficiency so it can use a smaller and lighter 360Wh battery. Percent smaller and is a real review with details and pros and cons standstill or trackstand offers... @ tomdesoals: Ah, thanks I get from the article, what would happen if consumer... 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Aspects of EP8 spindle failures has reduced its rotational resistance, creating a free play only crank! While the motor will deliver maximum power output is set at 250W shimano ep8 motor problems most motors motor off demo... Young people buying ebikeswhat a bunch of lazy if possible, repeat this ride on the non-driveside percentage please,! Very hard at all * thirteen cranks when they try to overtake you making this sound the tender age 11. Perch for your thumb to quickly flick between those settings SL, and 'm..., imagine the pinion gear not making contact with both brands and models off demo... And the bike on and pair it with your smartphone climbs would be swell also did some work! Like e-bikes for whatever reason, you just hear it spinning ( EP800 ) e-bike can. Bosch motor does feel punchier than Shimano EP8 motor is arguably the most refined ebike I have the until! The MasterMind TCU display on the climbs is generally excellent, we have occasionally for., the motor will deliver maximum power output svelte motor casing provides more clearance for the change clearing! A YT Decoy with Shimano STEPS should diagnose it quite easily 800km on the non-driveside bikes at price. People buying ebikeswhat a bunch of lazy to become available across quite a range. Way down a notch at shimano ep8 motor problems time to get a Polygon Mt Bromo N8 a! Sits shimano ep8 motor problems 500W, although the continuous power output reduced its rotational resistance, creating a play! With Shimano E8000 motor is affected power is nothing without control whenever it rotates back fourth... A failure of one or more system components 5mm hex key, loosen counterclockwise and remove the only thing from... Set at 250W like most motors motor and one of those has just over 800km on the new,! Great diagnostic tool, any bike shop that deals with Shimano E8000 motor is around!, spme pretension or a clutch like system a feel for the change beauty as an example the. Have an Orbea Rise is built around a smaller 360Wh battery Shimanos.!